The autonomous municipality center of Polhó is located in the highlands of Chiapas, approximately 2 hours north of San Cristóbal de Las Casas. The community of Acteal, site of the massacre on Dec. 22, 1997, is located within this autonomous municipality and also within the boundaries of the official (government-recognized) municipality of Chenalhó.

Luciano is a member of the Press and Visitors Commission in Polhó. He was interviewed by a Mexican national volunteering with Global Exchange in Polhó on July 31, 1998.

GLOBAL EXCHANGE: First of all, I wanted to ask you if there are foreign observers here in Polhó.

LUCIANO: At the moment there are only four observers. One is from Spain, another is, well....

GX: You're not sure, but they're not Mexicans.

L: No, they're not Mexicans.

GX: What type of activities do the foreigners carry out in the community?

L: They do activities in the community within the different working groups. There are all kinds of work that the bases do collectively. There are a lot of [humanitarian] caravans that are like that. There they are working, and working side by side with the bases. The foreigners come here to learn to help in this work as well.

GX: When you talk about 'bases' to what are you referring?

L: The Zapatista support bases.

GX: And in those communities what tasks do they learn to do?

L: We have a lot of working groups. For example, I've talked to you already about the women's artisan workshops. And now, there is another group of women who are working to make the structures for dry latrines.

GX: Building?

L: Yes, they are building toilets, for dry latrines. And others are ogranizing a group of refugees to do metal work and welding. And there are other groups, that are just starting the work, or as we might say, are now organized.... around improving conditions, we have an agronomist, a kind of agronomist, but he's originally from here. We are thinking of putting a little school where he can start to teach all the displaced people. We are distributing a document to all the people who want to join in supporting the school. We are looking at some terrace farming or a kind of vegetable garden then, but we're thinking of putting in some grain farms, rabbit farms, and chicken farms in order to take advantage of the manure we have right here.

GX: And do the foreigners help you in these social projects in the community? Is this what they do? Do you put them to work?

L: Yes. Although those that don't know how to work but want to, they have to learn.

GX: Do you folks invite them, or do they come on their own account, or how is it that they get here?

L: Well, the [autonomous] council sent out a comunique on the 25th of December inviting all members, national and international, of civil society, to come and pay witness, to provide testimonies to prove that we're not lying about what the state government is doing, that they're threatening and killing us. Because in all the media, in the press and the radio, the government is saying that everything is calm in Chiapas, that the there's nothing going on. And that was the case up to the day that they massacred the 45 people -- they didn't want to show what happened, they wanted to keep it quiet. So we decided to send an invitation to foreigners via the comunique.

GX: Let me see if I've understood right: your community invites foreigners because you want them to be witnesses to the conditions under which you're living?

L: Exactly, that's right.

GX: Also, can you tell me..? According to communiqué issued by the EZLN some time ago, they also wanted foreign observers to come here so that if there were human rights violations committed by the Zapatistas, they could also observe that as well.

L: That's right. We accept investigation into harmful things that they do, harmful things that that we do, but as displaced people....we can't really stop foreigners from coming. Anyway it's better that they come and write their testimonies.

GX: What do you mean when you say "we can't stop the foreigners"? What are you referring to with that?

L: What I mean is that they pass through here freely, not like what the government is doing: stopping them in the road, that they are turning them back. We don't think that's fair.

GX: So you think that it's good that the foreigners are here? What good results have you had from the foreign observers' presence here?

L: The principal result of foreigners being here is that the low intensity war has calmed down. Since the foreigners came, the problem has calmed down a bit. The federal soldiers and Public Security [police] are now concentrated in their camps, but when the foreigners or caravans aren't here the soldiers are everywhere, in all the communities. So now they know that the foreigners are here, the caravans and all the rest of it, they're concentrated in their own areas, but often they come out to hassle people on the roads. This is the main benefit of the foreigners presence.

GX: So what you're saying is that when they're here, the soldiers stay in their camps and their areas?

L: Exactly, that's right. And also the paramilitaries. They don't come and persecute us.

GX: They don't even harass you?

L: No. But if they hear that there aren't any observers here, they want to come back again.

GX: To go back in to the community?

L: Yes.

GX: Do you think that the presence of Mexican observers is just as good as foreign ones, or is there any difference?

L: There's quite a difference. Listen, the work of both of them is very good, but the Mexican caravans bring activities with them - activities for the children, they come to teach, there's theatre, music, all of that. The foreigners don't bring this with them. They just come as observers.

GX: The presence of Mexicans protects the communities just as much as the foreigners?

L: Quite a lot.

GX: Who protects more?

L: Both. Both.

GX: The soldiers stay away just the same if there are just Mexican observers, or only if there are foreign ones? Is there no difference do you think?

L: Well, no. There's no difference in that both are here; and the soldiers and state police are somewhere else when the observers are here.

GX: Then is the role that the community would like a foreign observer to play different to that of a Mexican observer? What is the value of a foreign observer?

L: Well, it's not a big deal. What they are doing is taking testimonies about what is happening here in Mexico to other countries - to show that the government is lying. The government is lying to other countries by saying that there's no war here in Mexico, there's no war in Chiapas. Well, then how did the people die? Even Labastida Ochoa is saying that there are no paramilitaries in Chiapas, that there's no proof, but we do have proof. Who killed the 45 compañeros here? They didn't die just like that, the paramilitaries killed them. Ernesto Zedillo is denying that there is war here in Chiapas and Labastida Ochoa wants to copy him and is saying that there aren't any paramilitaries. So what we want is that this information is dispersed in other countries. Because the people in government are big liars.

GX: And why do you want this proof to be broadcast in other countries?

L: It's like this. Because Ernesto Zedillo has everything in his hands that belongs to indigenous people. The indigenous are only asking for indigenous cultural rights, we are only asking for compliance with the San Andrés Accords. Just for doing that he wants to kill all of us. He wants to finish off all of the indigenous people. Because of this, with good reason we are disseminating information to other countries, so that people there evaluate what is happening here, that they protest, so that Zedillo recognizes all of the horrors that are that are happening here in Chiapas and in Mexico.

GX: You want foreigners to sympathize...?

L: To know! Just to know what is happening here in Mexico!

GX: In order to do what? With this information, do you want foreigners to act from their countries or to speak with their governments or what?

L: Exactly. So that their governments....because in their countries where there is not yet a war, they can talk to their governments and direct them about what to say, they don't understand, that the Mexican government should talk, and not continue killing indigenous Mexicans, because they are native Mexicans and they are killing them. So that's why we are inviting foreigners.

GX: You want them to give a bigger picture of what is Mexico?

L: Exactly. That's right. That they say it from their point of view. Sometimes that information doesn't get through, but it is still better if they come.

GX: The message through national media?

L: Yes, from national and international media. But it is better to come here. To see it. To witness it how it is. Because many times they don't believe that there are refugees, and many times they don't report that there are refugees. But in order that they see it with their own eyes, see where the refugees are, because they do exist. Because of that it's very important to let people in all the other countries know about the 10,000 people displaced by war here in the autonomous municipality of Chenalhó.

GX: Have you had a bad experience with foreign observers?

L: No.

GX: You don't have complaints?

L: No, we don't. They are very respectful, and the Mexican observers, Mexican caravans, are very respectful also. No, we don't have any complaints.

GX: Against foreigners...?

L: Not about them either. Well, one point about the military check points: they are taking what the foreigners are carrying, their cameras, whatever they have....they take it and don't let them through. That's what they are doing at the check-points. The foreigners are at the soldiers' whim, or at Ernesto Zedillo's whim. That's what it is, what they are doing. But around here, they can't put up a check-point, this is an indigenous zone, this is rebel territory, but we are not on the border here, they can't put up check-points, only at customs, but here it's not customs and here from Chenalhó to San Cristobál near the autonomous municipality there is another check-point....

GX: Which? The one at Acteal?

L: No, the one here before Majomut. But it's at their whim; it is not allowed here, they shouldn't put up check-points, because our possessions and our lands are here. They shouldn't put a military check-point here.

GX: Do you have any recommendations for foreigners that want to come here as observers?

L: I would just say that we invite them to continue coming. There is nothing else to say, it is very important that foreigners come here. As refugees we haven't thought about returning to our houses because the government continues to support all the paramilitaries. The government sends its soldiers....there are military camps here close to where the paramilitaries are. The government is maintaining the paramilitaries. The ones who are feeding the paramilitaries are the same ones who are feeding the federal soldiers. Because of this, one day we find that some community has had a bunch of money spent on it for food.... In some of the communities this has been organized well, well recorded, how much that community has spent, it has not been spent on the refugees but on the paramilitaries. The government is certain that they don't have any more (money), because of what it is spending on the paramilitaries, on its federal soldiers, .... they are calling it, I don't know, "social labor" but it is to maintain the paramilitaries. Ernesto Zedillo is very skillful in the way that he is doing it. Because they come to support the paramilitaries. Because they want to kill all the indigenous Zapatistas.

GX: Do you want the Mexican and international observers to see this and spread this information?

L: It is best that they spread it. So that Zedillo can see that things are not done this way, without diffusion, without publication. Because without spreading this information, other countries don't know what is happening here in our country, what is happening here in Chiapas, it is best to spread this information so the whole world knows what it is that is happening. Who is killing the indigenous, who the governor was, who the President is that is killing the indigenous, it is very important that the whole world knows. Its like that.

A: To return to the discussion about the observers. It has been said many times, the observers who come to Mexico, who come to the communities, have been accused of involving themselves in the "political acts" of Mexico. The foreign observers who are in your bases and in your communities do they tell you what to do, or involve themselves with your governments?

L: Well, in the newspaper I have read a bit where Zedillo and also Labastida Ochoa said that the foreigners come to organize the indigenous and come to lead them, but these are complete lies. It is not true. We invite the foreigners, we called for them, to all national and international civil society, we didn't invite them to come to organize us, we invited them to come and observe to testify, and for this we invited them. We did not invite them to come and organize us or to ..., like I said, to take advantage of us. No, we didn't invite them for this. What Zedillo and Labastida Ochoa, what they are doing, is complete lies. But this is what we want..., to understand that, not to spread what is not true. To spread what is and what has been done.

A: Well, I don't think that I have more questions for you, but I don't know if you would like to add something about the international observers or say something to the international community?

L: Well, I would like to add nothing more than to the Zedillo government, that if they continue to not let foreigners pass, well this could restart problems, because as it is, they do not let the international press and the press, the journalists, pass. Those that we like, we want Zedillo to ensure that the foreigners have free transit. Its like that.

A: Well, Luciano, thank you very much.

L: Good, well... (tape cut until the last comment) One day we are going to invite Zedillo to come here, so that he can see the poverty of the indigenous, how they are living, how they are eating. One day we have to invite Zedillo, to spend a few days here... so that we can share a pozolito (meal) the way that we eat.