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Interview with Hugo Sanchez

Interview with Hugo Sanchez1, inhabitant of Taniperla, headquarters of the dismantled autonomous municipality, Ricardo Flores Magón.

August 28th, 1998

Background

On April 11th 1998, the mainly Zapatista community of Taniperla was attacked by a one thousand strong joint police-military operation which dismantled the newly inaugurated autonomous municipality of Ricardo Flores Magón.

On the day of the raid, two non indigenous Mexicans and 12 foreigners were observing the human rights situation in the community. The 12 international observers were detained and deported the next day; the two Mexicans were arrested and imprisoned, along with seven local indigenous men, on charges including rebellion, theft, damage to property, and the usurpation of public functions. A few days later, nine more people were arrested on similar charges. All 16 immediately joined the Voz de Cerro Hueco, a political prisoners' organization at the main penitentiary in Tuxtla Guttierez.

In May this year, the Mexican National Human Rights Commission (CNDH) declared that there were serious irregularities in the procedures used in the detention and imprisonment of the 16 people at Taniperla. In its official recommendation to the interim Governor for Chiapas, Roberto Albores Guillen, the CNDH formally requested that the Judicial Police involved in the operation be investigated for committing "serious mistakes of a technical legal nature" in that the arrests were carried out without a previous investigation.

The dismantling of the autonomous municipality was justified by the governor as an act to "re-establish law and order" in the area. The arrests, however, were entirely based on the retrospective accusations of local people affiliated to the PRI2.

On August 28th, the PRI authorities in the community denied all knowledge of the charges levied against the nine men arrested during the operation on April 11th. They also claimed that they had been forced by the investigating authorities to sign documents that they did not understand3.

The following is a testimony that was taken from a Zapatista member of the community of Taniperla in San Cristóbal de las Casas. During the interview, he describes in vivid detail how the day to day living conditions of both Zapatista and government supporters have deteriorated since the Mexican security forces took over the community in April this year.

Interview

Global Exchange: "Can you tell me what happened the day that the security forces dismantled the community?"

Agustín: "On that day, the 11th of April, we had inaugurated the autonomous municipality. The Priistas4 asked for the intervention of the Public Security5 forces, together with immigration and the Judicials6. Thirty Public Security trucks arrived, including the ones for immigration and the judicials..."

Global Exchange: "Was there no army?"

Agustín: "The army was there too in six heavily armed trucks. So they arrived and immediately surrounded the community. They entered at about 4.30 in the morning. The peace campers were there, both nationals and internationals, observing violations by the army -- they've been installed there since 1995. So at that moment they arrived and quickly arrested the foreign observers, harassing them, asking them what they were doing, where they were from, what their role was -- if they were observers working in human rights. Immigration did this and the police broke into the houses where people were sleeping, because they didn't know that the Public Security was going to arrive, so they were still sleeping with their families. So they started to arrest people in their houses."

Global Exchange: "Did they respect people's belongings?"

Agustín: "No! They entered people's houses and stole a lot of things! They didn't respect anything, and there were no arrest warrents. They just entered aggressively. The observers kept asking them "Why are you arresting people? Have you got arrest warrents or not?" That's when they attacked them as well, took them prisoner, the observers, because the priistas were there participating with the Public Security. They were forced to because they'd asked for it [to happen] and had to go around with them. They detained Checko7 and Luis Menendez8 and now they're in Cerro Hueco9. They've committed no crime whatsoever. They're part of the observation [in the community], participating as human rights [workers]. And these gentlemen were doing nothing, they respected everyone, they were very respectful."

Global Exchange: "What reason did the priistas give for inviting the Public Security to raid the community?"

Agustín: "The pretext that they used was that we were part of the rebellion, that we had been robbing, that we had stolen money and cut down fruit trees. But it's not true, because there's nothing there where we installed the building10; there were no fruit trees. Also this idea that we had taken land from them isn't true, it belonged to the community."

Global Exchange: "To the whole community?"

Agustín: "To the whole community. It belonged to the ejido11, from the first allocation12; it didn't belong to them, the priistas, because they're extensionists -- they're from the first extension13. They have separate fields belonging to the extension. So it's not their land, the fields belong to the ejido members in the community, from the [original] allocation. So there hasn't been any robbery. But they used this to accuse them and it wasn't true; it was just used to prefabricate a crime, to slander them. It was all slander."

Global Exchange: "What did the community do when the security forces entered?"

Agustín: "The community was afraid; they fled into the mountains."

Global Exchange: "Everyone, or just the men?"

Agustín: "The men. The women stayed behind because the Priistas' idea was to run everyone out, but the women stayed to resist. They didn't want to leave their houses -- where would they have lived? And anyway they hadn't done anything.

"They said that it was illegal to set up an autonomous municipality, that's what the Public Security were saying; Juan Villafuerte, a Priista deputy candidate14 for the 19th district was also there and announced in a loud voice that it's illegal to establish an autonomous municipality."

Global Exchange: "Why do the authorities consider the autonomous municipalities illegal, while you think they're legal?"

Agustín: "Because the people have to make their own municipalities. And besides, the government signed the agreements at San Andres15. They're signed and not being fulfilled."

Global Exchange: "So what you're saying is that the conflict is continuing because the government isn't fulfilling what it signed and that you have to implement what was agreed on your own?"

Agustín: "Well that's right, because the government hasn't fulfilled [what it signed] and isn't listening to what we're saying. It doesn't listen and it doesn't fulfill at all."

Global Exchange: "So when the men were displaced and the women and children stayed behind, what happened next?"

Agustín: "So they grabbed those people, and everyone else was displaced, and they took them to Cerro Hueco. At the beginning they detained nine people, then after two or three days seven more who were human rights promoters. They were studying to become human rights defenders for the community, so that they would know their rights, so that each person would know their rights.

"They had already identified who they wanted to arrest, they had it all planned beforehand. They don't like the fact that they were participating as observers or human rights workers, that they were providing accompaniment to the community -- helping the community to deal with the human rights violations by the army, the violations committed by the Public Security. And it's coming from the government. The Mexican government says that there's democracy, that it's fulfilling everyone's rights. But it's not true, there's no democracy, the government's in charge, not the people. There are human rights in Mexico, but only in name; the government doesn't implement them, it doesn't respect indigenous rights, the rights of indigenous people, the rights of women. That's why they took the human rights promoters away. They found their papers saying that they were human rights promoters and detained them to send them to Cerro Hueco, just for participating in human rights. This isn't right, because they've got the right to dignity, to observe what's happening."

Global Exchange: "We heard that after the autonomous municipality was dismantled and the human rights observers and promoters were detained, the security forces began to form paramilitaries. Is this true?"

Agustín: "Well yes, it's true, because as soon as the people were displaced, they began to patrol the community -- the Public Security together with the paramilitaries. They [the paramilitaries] were using the same uniform as the Public Security. And they were in the same checkpoints as the Public Security."

Global Exchange: "And who were these people?"

Agustín: "Well...Pedro Chulín, he's the head of the paramilitaries...they're priistas."

Global Exchange: "Are they members of the community?"

Agustín: "Yes, they're members of the community of Taniperla. The government forms these paramilitaries so that there are confrontations between the poor, just like what happened in Acteal. So that's why they're forming paramilitaries like the Chinchulines and Paz y Justicia."

Global Exchange: "And what's the name of the paramilitary group that's being formed in Taniperla?"

Agustín: "This one's called Anti-Zapatista, it's the MIRA16."

Global Exchange: "Have you [the Zapatista part of the community] seen these civilians with weapons?"

Agustín: "When the municipality was dismantled by 700 police, they saw that 30 people were armed, 30 paramilitaries."

Global Exchange: "So after the dismantling, the Public Security gave arms to 30 civilians from the community?"

Agustín: "Well yes, I think so, because they were wearing the uniform, I think they gave them weapons as well. What's more, they're now asking them for more weapons so that there are confrontations between poor people."

Global Exchange: "So how do you know that they're receiving weapons?"

Agustín: "Because that's what people are hearing. The people from the community have heard them asking for weapons."

Global Exchange: "So members of this group hear others asking for weapons and then inform the Zapatistas?"

Agustín: "That's right, that's right, they hear this. And the people who hear these things live [in that part of the community]."

Global Exchange: "And what are the paramilitaries doing now?"

Agustín: "The paramilitaries are working with the Public Security and the authorities. There is already a kind of trust between them. They behave like they were all family; they go into the [Priista's] houses armed. They walk around the community armed."

Global Exchange: "So have you seen armed members of the Taniperla community working alongside the Public Security?"

Agustín: "I haven't seen them, but other compañeros17 have, yes."

Global Exchange: "And did they carry out joint patrols with the Public Security?"

Agustín: "At the end of April when the community was displaced they thought that they had frightened them off and that they weren't going to come back. They started patrolling the community with the Public Security, armed they say, that's what they saw. They saw that they were armed."

Global Exchange: "Has the autonomous part of the community received threats from the Priistas? Have they been threatened directly by the paramilitaries?"

Agustín: "In all the autonomous communities, not just in Taniperla, yes of course."

Global Exchange: "But in Taniperla they have they actually threatened you yet?"

Agustín: "Well what they're doing is a threat because they're collaborating with the Public Security and the soldiers. They're trying to carry out a low intensity or psychological war. That's what they're using because it's already a threat against the autonomous community. They want to kick us all out. They don't want to complain about the Public Security, they want them to be there so that they can work together. But this is a threat as I told you because they've put on the uniforms and armed themselves and are participating with the Public Security, and this is a threat so that they can frighten people."

Global Exchange: "We've heard that they threatened to rape the women when the men fled so that they would come back down [from the mountains]. Is this true?"

Agustín: "Yes, that's what they thought. When the people were displaced, they passed by the houses of the Zapatista community saying that they were going to rape the women so that the men would come back down from the mountains and they could arrest them. They also pressured the women saying: "Tell your husband to come back down and say he's sorry and that he's going to become a Priista. If your husband doesn't come down, we're going to go after him in the mountains. We're going to get him dead or alive," that's what they said. This was in April. The women became very worried."

Global Exchange: "Who was saying all of this: the Priistas or the Public Security?"

Agustín: "Both the Public Security and the Priistas. And what's more they went into the mountains. They're still in the mountains, armed and with their dogs, to look for the displaced people who still have arrest warrents18."

Global Exchange: "When the displacement occured, did you go the mountains with the other men?"

Agustín: "Yes, I went too because they were going to grab me. That's why we all left. I went into the mountains as well. "

Global Exchange: "But some have now returned?"

Agustín: "Yes, almost the majority, but they're afraid; they're not working normally because they've heard that they're going to arrest them. A few days ago they said in a Priista meeting that they were going to arrest me and 17 others. According to the women, they said they were going to arrest me because I was participating in human rights."

Global Exchange: "They said this to your wife?"

Agustín: "No, they said this in the Priista meeting in front of all the women."

Global Exchange: "So how did this news get out?"

Agustín: "There are Priistas that already don't want to work with them any more, so they pass us information to warn us. There are some families that aren't 100% Priista and don't agree with what they're doing. They're neutral, so they say "listen, I've heard that they're going to arrest you. Take care, because I'm sure they're going to arrest you."

Global Exchange: "Do you think that these rumours could also be a tactic to terrorize the Zapatista community?"

Agustín: "Yes, I think so. They try to frighten you, they say that they're going to grab you. The people already believe them because they did it before on the 11th [of April]. Whether there's a warrent or not, or whether you've committed a crime or not, they grab you. They don't want you to participate; they don't want you to claim your rights. What they want is for you to be a Priistas, to be with the bad government, with the ideas of the bad government, so that we don't build peace, justice and dignity. That's what they want."

Global Exchange: "What interests me is why one side of the community has aligned itself with the government. If part of the community is seeking autonomy, more resources for everyone, land, all of that, why would another part of the community not want autonomy and put itself on the side of the government?"

Agustín: "The government creates fear, frightens the Priistas: "You'd better come over to our side," they say "because we're going to arrest or kill all of the people in the Zapatista organization. They're acting illegally, also civil society." There's not only the fear -- they also give them projects."

Global Exchange: "What kind of projects?"

Agustín: "Well, for example there's coffee, coffee renovation. They give them all their documents. There's PROCAMPO19 as well. You have to have your electoral identification or birth certificate or they won't give you PROCAMPO, they won't give you projects."

Global Exchange: "And the Zapatistas can't obtain documents?"

Agustín: "Yes, but they write down the number of the identification at election time and then they have it. So before the project they ask you for your credential so that they can make a note of it."

Global Exchange: "So you have to vote to receive help?"

Agustín: "That's right."

Global Exchange: "So if you don't vote in the elections, if you don't participate..."

Agustín: "...they don't give you a project. And that's how they frighten them. If not: "The day after tomorrow, we're going to arrest you, we're going to kill you."

Global Exchange: "So if a person doesn't declare him or herself Priista the authorities consider them Zapatistas and could arrest them. Is that what you're saying?"

Agustín: "That's right."

Global Exchange: "So you also have to declare yourself a Priista to be left alone?"

Agustín: "All you have to do is say that you're Priista and the government won't bother you any more."

Global Exchange: "And do you have to do this in public?"

Agustín: "Yes, of course! And then the government doesn't bother you any more. What they want is that you don't participate any more, that you don't talk, that you don't participate in politics."

Global Exchange: "Are there people who openly declare themselves to be Priistas but don't support their politics?"

Agustín: "But they can't really do that. They'd just say, "you aren't our comrade anymore, you're not a Priista anymore, go over to the other side! We're not going to give you a house to live in anymore, we're not going to give you this or that," because what the government's doing is giving housing to the Priistas, but not really. They don't really give the housing because they half to pay for half of it. They're made of adobe20 and they don't give them away, you have to pay half. The government's doing business: they don't really give you housing at all. But the government goes around saying "We've given housing to all these communities, we're doing drinking water projects, there's drinking water everywhere. There's no shortage of drinking water in Mexico, there's no shortage of housing. We're giving everything to the campesinos21, to the communities, to the canyons22, to the poor, to the indigenous," but it's not true. They give to those who favor them, but if you don't support them, they give you nothing."

Global Exchange: "But couldn't a person go and vote for the opposition and still receive help from the government because they've voted and registered?"

Agustín: "There are places where people are forced to vote for the PRI."

Global Exchange: "Why, because the elections aren't observed properly?"

Agustín: "Yes, partly it's this. But also those who don't participate in politics, for example if you're living on a big landowner's ranch he says "If you don't vote for me, you'll have to leave my land, you'll have to fend for yourself," and the people don't know where to go."

Global Exchange: "But how can they know if someone's voted for one candidate or another. Isn't it a secret vote?"

Agustín: "Well, that's true, it's a secret vote, but the government is always tricking people because they buy them off with money. They promise them things. They say, for example, "I understand your problems, my father was a campesino," that's how they deceive people during their campaign, "My father was a campesino, I've seen how you're suffering, I've seen what you don't have, I can bring you this, that and the other, all that you ask for.." They offer the heavens! But when he's already taken up office, he no longer fulfills what he said he would. During his campaign he gives away footballs, t-shirts, food supplies, farm animals, so that they see that he's a good person, that he'd be a good governor or deputy. But once he's in postion, he forgets all that he said."

Global Exchange: "So what would you like the international community to do in the light of all of this?"

Agustín: "The communities are frightened. I hope that people continue supporting us nationally and internationally. That they demand that the Mexican government fulfills the accords. Also that they respect human rights. That they respect the poor, that they respect someone for being indigenous. What we also want is that more human rights [observers] come, like the U.N.. That they come and accompany the communities. Nationals and internationals. Because where there are soldiers there are lots of violations; that's why we want them to continue participating as observers, that more observers come, that they go to the communities where there are military camps. Because the government is saying "Oh, our soldiers are quiet, they're in their bases, they're not doing anything." They should come and see the violations that they're carrying out, because the truth is that they're not in their camps, they're entering the communities armed. They win the trust of the communities and then they frighten them. They manipulate people. People are manipulated. They cover their eyes, they cover their mouths so that they don't know their rights. That's what they do: they frighten people. So that's why we want more people to come and participate and accompany the communities where the soldiers are.

"We also want people -- nationally and internationally -- to demand that the government withdraw the army and the Public Security. The communities aren't barracks, we don't need someone to look after us like they say. The truth is that they're not looking after us, they're violating us. It's affecting our lives, the life of our communities. They're creating divisions, dividing families, dividing communities. The soldiers are bringing in prostitutes and this is a bad example for the community. There's also a lot of alchohol, a lot of beer. The communities didn't drink before. They're bringing social problems. It's not true what the govenment's saying, that they're just applying the law, that they're fulfilling [the San Andres Accords], that there's democracy and all of that. There's no democracy, there's no peace. What kind of peace is there if they're detaining people that haven't committed any crimes, that's not peace, that's not justice. They're detaining people that haven't committed a crime -- that isn't justice. That's what I think.

"There are some other things I'd like to tell you that I forgot to metion before. It's about the Public Security...they've set up a checkpoint in the middle of the community of Taniperla. They search trucks, rucksacks, everything. When they find spirits or beer they gather them together and call the authorities and start to drink with the Priistas -- the commanders of the Public Security. Drinking was prohibited before in the community -- we voted for this. We didn't vote for this so we could take drink off people for ourselves. But they don't do things like that, they take it off people so that they can have it for themselves. They're robbing people. They don't want to buy it themselves so they take it from the community. It's not that they've prohibited it -- it's more that they want to drink it themselves.

"The Public Security are drunk on a daily basis. The Priistas don't want to denounce them. Their own authorities, that is, the people from the Priista municipality, used to get drunk with the Public Security, but they don't want to say anything about it. But the compañeros23 have seen that when they're drunk they beat the authorities; they even break their ribs with kicks.

Global Exchange: "What, the Zapatista authorities?"

Agustín: "No, the Priistas. The Public Security beat the Priistas when they were drunk. One of them was in bed for 15 days having been to a huesero24, but they didn't denounce it because they were the ones that asked them to come. They're frightened!"

Global Exchange: "So the Public Security are violating the rights of the Priistas in the community as well?"

Agustín: "Them as well! Not just the organization25 but the Priistas as well! There's also something else...it was last week. Two of the Public Security were drunk when they found one of the Priista men at the river who had gone to carry gravel. "Hey you, boy, go and get us some beer," they said to him. "Your brother in law's at the entrance of the community, they won't let him in. Go and bring your brother in law here, quick!"

"But my brother in law doesn't sell beer,"

"Aren't you going to go then you asshole?"

"But why are you treating me like this? If you want beer, buy it yourself rather than just taking it!" the Priista said. It's affecting the Priistas as well, not just us.

"Are you going to go or not?"

"If you continue treating me like this, I'm going to report you to your captain."

"So are you going to do it or not?"

"I'm going to go to the Captain because you're harrassing me."

"Go if you like, they'll only arrest you."

"What d'you mean they'll arrest me? I'm going to report you over there because you're giving me a hard time."

"So you're a stubborn bastard are you? You're not afraid?" and then they hit him. They hit him in the chest and since he was carrying gravel, his chest all swoll up. So he went over to see the Priista doctor and he reported it to the Captain.

"Who hit you?" he asked him.

"Those police over there."

"Do you know them; are you sure it was them?"

"Yes, that's them."

"Well, go and see the huesero, but don't say anything, don't make a complaint. We'll pay for the huesero, but don't report what happened."

He paid so that the Priista wouldn't say anything, so that he wouldn't make a complaint.

Global Exchange: "So that the police would remain in impunity?"

Agustín: "There you go! The Public Security aren't just bothering one part of the community, they're harassing the Priistas as well. They're threatening them too. So some of the Priistas are already saying: "We asked them to come here to look after us, but they're not doing that, they're bothering us and attacking us too.

"So they go over to the other side. But others don't. They say "Why are you going? They're going to look after us, they're going to accompany us." But they're violating [the rights of] the Priistas as well.

"So this is what they did. These two beat this guy. But they're also stopping all the trucks that come into the community and asking the Priistas for their papers, the driver's driving licence. They don't have a right to ask for their papers on the trucks, but they do it to everyone. Just because they're Priistas it doesn't mean that they respect them. So there's a part of the Priista community that's beginning to realise that it's not good that the Public Security are there, because they don't respect them at all.

"The idea now is that they [the Public Security] want to leave the community. So they're saying to themselves "So that they ask us to leave let's do even more violations," that's their idea. They want to leave the community already. So they're saying that they're going to rape any women that go to the river to wash.

Global Exchange: "So is this just the Public Security or the army as well?"

Agustín: "The army too, but less."

Global Exchange: "Is that because they're more disciplined?"

Agustín: "I don't think it's because they're more disciplined. Lots of soldiers are also coming out to spy. They go around the community harassing and intimidating the community. They also try to gain the trust of the Priistas and go into their houses armed. They're also renting houses off the Priistas and going around with their women and hanging out with their children. The government says that the soldiers aren't doing anything, that the police aren't doing anything, but the community sees the violations that they're committing, the fact that they're dividing the community, families as well.

"One of the Public Security fell in love with the daughter of one of the Priistas. But he already has a wife, and so now he doesn't want her anymore. He just abused her because he had no intention of marrying her and now he's left her. The soldiers do the same. This is really bad because they're leaving them with children. It's dividing families. And they don't want to camplain because they invited them in. And the authorities don't want them to complain about what's happening because they don't want the Mexican people, the international community to know about the violations. So the insecurity continues.


Notes

1. This name has been changed to protect his identity.

2. The governing Institutional Revolutionary Party.

3. La Jornada, 29th of August 1998, pg. 13.

4. Local supporters of the PRI.

5. Public Security Police, Chiapas state security force responsible for basic law and order. The PSP have been implicated in numerous human rights violations, including the massacre at Acteal in December 1997 and the murder of an indigenous woman at a demonstration march in Ocosingo on January 12th 1998.

6. Policia Judicial, both state and federal, this police force is responsible for investigating crimes and detaining suspects.

7. Sergio Valdez, Professor from the Auntonomous Metropolitan University (UAM)

8. Sergio Valdez and Luis Menendez, Human Rights Worker from Fray Pedro Lorenzo de la Nada Human Rights Centre, were acting as observers in the community when the raid took place.

9. High Security prison in the Chiapas State capital, Tuxtla Guttierez.

10. The wooden structure that was erected in the community to house the newly elected autonomous municipality was destroyed during the raid by local PRI supporters under orders from the security forces.

11. Category of land tenure that grants use-rights to communities that benefited from agrarian reforms after the 1917 Mexican Revolution. Ejidos usually consist of individual family plots and common lands managed by the whole community. In 1992, Article 27 of the constitution was ammended in preparation for the North American Free Trade Agreement, effectively terminating Mexico's agrarian reform program and opening the way for the privatization of the ejido sector. Changes to the agrarian reform program have been cited as one of the main causes of the Zapatista uprising in 1994.

12. The first land allocation to this ejido community by the State.

13. The first extension to the ejido (normally to a subsequent generation as a result of land pressure and population growth)

14. For the Chiapas State Legislature.

15. The San Andres Accords on Indigenous Rights and Culture signed between the EZLN and the government in February 1996. The accords recognized the right of indigenous people to exercize a large degree of self government and autonomy, including the right to create indigenous municipalities and to elect their leaders according to traditional customs and practices

16. Movimiento Indigena Revolucionario Anti-Zapatista (Indigenous Revolutionary Anti-Zapatista Movement)

17. Common term used to describe a Zapatista sympathizer.

18. The arrest warrents for members of the autonomous community were issued after the municipality was dismantled.

19. A direct susidy program (designed to be more compatible with the principles of free trade) established for campesinos by the Salinas Administration in October 1993. Other state subsidies for irrigation, electricity, and chemical inputs were mostly eliminated at this time.

20. Traditional building block material made from dried mud.

21. Peasant farmer usually dependent on subsistance agriculture.

22. Lacondon Jungle region, often referred to as the Conflict Zone. This is the area of greatest Zapatista influence; it has also been heavily occupied by the military since their first offensive agains the EZLN in Februrary 1995.

23. General term used to denote Zapatista supporters

24. Traditional bone doctor

25. Common term for the Zapatista support base


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